[DISCUSS} Fork FlexJS from Apache Flex

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[DISCUSS} Fork FlexJS from Apache Flex

Alex Harui-2
Hi Folks,

I (and many others on the PMC) believe there are sufficient reasons to ask
the Apache Board of Directors to create a new Apache Top-Level Project
called Apache FlexJS separate from Apache Flex.  The Apache Board has
approved splitting other projects in the past and the proposal below is
based on a past proposal to split another Apache project.

The main reason is that there seems to be a set of folks who are only
working on Apache Flex and another set who are only working on FlexJS.
Only a few have made commits to both products in the past year and the
contribution to one product or the other was minimal.  Second, forking
should save time for folks only interested in Flex or FlexJS as you don't
have to filter out emails, web site and wiki information and bugs reports
that apply to the product you are not interested in.  Third, forking would
give a cleaner opportunity to try out Apache's GitBox implementation that
allows us to leverage more GitHub functionality and make GitHub more
primary in our development pipeline.  Fourth, many folks on the PMC have
not been active in a long time, and a new project with a smaller PMC and
committers list might make it more clear who is involved with FlexJS.

--------- proposal -----------

Apache FlexJS for Apache Top-Level Project

Abstract

Apache FlexJS is a new implementation of the principles of Apache Flex but
designed for JavaScript runtimes instead of Adobe Flash/AIR runtimes.
Apache FlexJS was created and released as part of the Apache Flex project
and the UI framework is a full rewrite and does not leverage the code
bases donated by Adobe.  Only the FlexJS compiler source was donated by
Adobe.

Over time, the set of Apache Flex committers who are working on Apache
Flex releases have become distinct from those working on FlexJS.  Add to
that the Adobe announcement of the end-of-life for Flash in the browser,
it makes sense to separate FlexJS from Flex so that followers of one side
or the other don't have to filter out emails, bugs, web pages, etc, that
they don't need.

The proposal is to form an Apache FlexJS top-level project instead of
creating a new Incubator Podling.   That is because all of the folks being
proposed to the new Apache FlexJS PMC below have been on the Apache Flex
PMC for months, if not years, and understand how to participate
productively in an Apache project.  Plus, Apache FlexJS has already been
released by the top-level Apache Flex project.

Overview of FlexJS

Apache FlexJS is designed to improve developer productivity in creating
applications for wherever Javascript runs, including browsers as well as
Apache Cordova applications, Node, etc.  FlexJS already has an ecosystem
of folks creating IDEs for FlexJS, and some folks are at various points in
the process of migrating existing Flex applications to FlexJS.

Current Status

Meritocracy

Within Apache Flex, the FlexJS development has been conducted as a
meritocracy.  No existing FlexJS developers came with the compiler code
base donated by Adobe nor were they on the initial committers list for
Apache Flex other than Alex Harui.  Everyone else has earned their way in
by contributing and earning merit.

Community

Many FlexJS users are trying to migrate an existing Apache Flex app off of
Adobe Flash.  As their migration progresses they will become less and less
interested in Apache Flex releases and activity.  However, the Apache Flex
JIRA project contains some  30,000 Flex issues migrated from Adobe's bug
base, and the team page for Flex makes it hard to determine which
committers are active on FlexJS, and it is frequently hard to determine if
a user's question is about regular Flex or FlexJS.   We are seeing an
increase in user interest with the Flash end-of-life announcement and
having separate mailing lists, web pages, and JIRA projects will help save
everyone time and energy.

Alignment

Apache FlexJS is already being released by Apache.

Known Risks

Code Extraction

The flex-asjs, flex-tours, flex-typedefs, and flex-falcon Git repos would
be migrated to GitBox.  Other Apache Flex repos would be treated as
external dependencies.  This includes flex-utilities and the Apache Flex
Installer.

Orphaned Projects

Most FlexJS PMC members are planning to remain on the Apache Flex PMC to
help out just-in-case, but are already mostly inactive on the Flex code
bases. However, there are at least 3 Apache Flex PMC members who have not
contributed at all to FlexJS and participate in regular Flex releases, so
the expectation is that Apache Flex will remain a viable project for some
time to come.

Inexperience with Open Source

All of the initial team has been contributing to Apache Flex for months if
not years.

Homogenous Developers

No company employs more than two of the members of the initial team.

Reliance on Salaried Developers

Until about a year ago, only 2 of the proposed PMC members were paid to
work on FlexJS.  The rest contributed in their spare time.  Two more are
now paid to migrate an existing application and thus contribute to add
missing features and fix bugs.  By creating a separate project, we hope to
attract more folks who may not want to be involved with the legacy Apache
Flex code.

Relationship with Existing Apache Projects

Apache FlexJS might use some releases from Apache Flex for some features
or for an Installer app.  FlexJS can be used to create Apache Cordova
applications and we hope to find time to make the Cordova community aware
of this capability.  The Apache FlexJS Compiler has dependencies on Apache
Commons, and we use Apache Ant and Apache Maven for building the various
release artifacts.

Cryptography

Apache FlexJS does not currently distribute cryptography code other than
an MD5 hash algorithm.

Required Resources

Mailing Lists

-private@
-dev@
-commits@
-users@
-issues@

Version Control

We would like to use GitBox if it is practical to convert the current git
repos listed above.  We want to explore using GitHub's wiki and
documentation tools.

Issue Tracking

If GitBox allows us to use GitHub issues, we will use that, otherwise, we
will request a new JIRA project from Infra.

Other Resources

We would like to try using Git for our website version control and
whatever the publishing process is.  We will probably continue to run jobs
on builds.a.o.

Initial PMC

Harbs
Yishay Weiss
Alex Harui
Peter Ent
Josh Tynjala
Piotr Zarzycki
Carlos Rovira
Greg Dove
Erik De Bruin
Omprakash Muppirala
Frédéric Thomas
Olaf Krueger
Michael Schmalle
Dave Fisher


Initial Committers

Christofer Dutz
Andy Dufilie
Darrell Loverin

We propose Harbs as initial PMC Chair and VP Apache FlexJS.

Affiliations

Alex Harui and Peter Ent are currently employees of Adobe Systems Inc.
Nobody else works for a large corporation.

--------- end proposal -----------


It isn't clear how much longer Adobe will pay Peter and I to work on Flex
and/or FlexJS.  So getting rid of as much overhead as possible so we can
try to get as many folks to use FlexJS in the next few months will help
make a case to keep us on FlexJS longer.  Yes there is a risk that forking
may be a distraction and cause a loss of momentum, but whether I get to
continue full-time or in my spare-time, I want to make the most efficient
use of my time.


I will be stepping down as Apache Flex chair since I want to spend most of
my time on FlexJS.  I will remain on the Apache Flex PMC to help out in
case of emergency.

Please provide feedback and questions ASAP.  The plan is to have a vote in
a few days so we can present this proposal to the board around September 1
so it can be on the September board agenda along with changes to the
Apache Flex chair.


Thanks,
-Alex

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Re: [DISCUSS} Fork FlexJS from Apache Flex

Harbs
Very well  said.

Let’s do this! :-)

Harbs

> On Aug 29, 2017, at 7:37 AM, Alex Harui <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hi Folks,
>
> I (and many others on the PMC) believe there are sufficient reasons to ask
> the Apache Board of Directors to create a new Apache Top-Level Project
> called Apache FlexJS separate from Apache Flex.  The Apache Board has
> approved splitting other projects in the past and the proposal below is
> based on a past proposal to split another Apache project.
>
> The main reason is that there seems to be a set of folks who are only
> working on Apache Flex and another set who are only working on FlexJS.
> Only a few have made commits to both products in the past year and the
> contribution to one product or the other was minimal.  Second, forking
> should save time for folks only interested in Flex or FlexJS as you don't
> have to filter out emails, web site and wiki information and bugs reports
> that apply to the product you are not interested in.  Third, forking would
> give a cleaner opportunity to try out Apache's GitBox implementation that
> allows us to leverage more GitHub functionality and make GitHub more
> primary in our development pipeline.  Fourth, many folks on the PMC have
> not been active in a long time, and a new project with a smaller PMC and
> committers list might make it more clear who is involved with FlexJS.
>
> --------- proposal -----------
>
> Apache FlexJS for Apache Top-Level Project
>
> Abstract
>
> Apache FlexJS is a new implementation of the principles of Apache Flex but
> designed for JavaScript runtimes instead of Adobe Flash/AIR runtimes.
> Apache FlexJS was created and released as part of the Apache Flex project
> and the UI framework is a full rewrite and does not leverage the code
> bases donated by Adobe.  Only the FlexJS compiler source was donated by
> Adobe.
>
> Over time, the set of Apache Flex committers who are working on Apache
> Flex releases have become distinct from those working on FlexJS.  Add to
> that the Adobe announcement of the end-of-life for Flash in the browser,
> it makes sense to separate FlexJS from Flex so that followers of one side
> or the other don't have to filter out emails, bugs, web pages, etc, that
> they don't need.
>
> The proposal is to form an Apache FlexJS top-level project instead of
> creating a new Incubator Podling.   That is because all of the folks being
> proposed to the new Apache FlexJS PMC below have been on the Apache Flex
> PMC for months, if not years, and understand how to participate
> productively in an Apache project.  Plus, Apache FlexJS has already been
> released by the top-level Apache Flex project.
>
> Overview of FlexJS
>
> Apache FlexJS is designed to improve developer productivity in creating
> applications for wherever Javascript runs, including browsers as well as
> Apache Cordova applications, Node, etc.  FlexJS already has an ecosystem
> of folks creating IDEs for FlexJS, and some folks are at various points in
> the process of migrating existing Flex applications to FlexJS.
>
> Current Status
>
> Meritocracy
>
> Within Apache Flex, the FlexJS development has been conducted as a
> meritocracy.  No existing FlexJS developers came with the compiler code
> base donated by Adobe nor were they on the initial committers list for
> Apache Flex other than Alex Harui.  Everyone else has earned their way in
> by contributing and earning merit.
>
> Community
>
> Many FlexJS users are trying to migrate an existing Apache Flex app off of
> Adobe Flash.  As their migration progresses they will become less and less
> interested in Apache Flex releases and activity.  However, the Apache Flex
> JIRA project contains some  30,000 Flex issues migrated from Adobe's bug
> base, and the team page for Flex makes it hard to determine which
> committers are active on FlexJS, and it is frequently hard to determine if
> a user's question is about regular Flex or FlexJS.   We are seeing an
> increase in user interest with the Flash end-of-life announcement and
> having separate mailing lists, web pages, and JIRA projects will help save
> everyone time and energy.
>
> Alignment
>
> Apache FlexJS is already being released by Apache.
>
> Known Risks
>
> Code Extraction
>
> The flex-asjs, flex-tours, flex-typedefs, and flex-falcon Git repos would
> be migrated to GitBox.  Other Apache Flex repos would be treated as
> external dependencies.  This includes flex-utilities and the Apache Flex
> Installer.
>
> Orphaned Projects
>
> Most FlexJS PMC members are planning to remain on the Apache Flex PMC to
> help out just-in-case, but are already mostly inactive on the Flex code
> bases. However, there are at least 3 Apache Flex PMC members who have not
> contributed at all to FlexJS and participate in regular Flex releases, so
> the expectation is that Apache Flex will remain a viable project for some
> time to come.
>
> Inexperience with Open Source
>
> All of the initial team has been contributing to Apache Flex for months if
> not years.
>
> Homogenous Developers
>
> No company employs more than two of the members of the initial team.
>
> Reliance on Salaried Developers
>
> Until about a year ago, only 2 of the proposed PMC members were paid to
> work on FlexJS.  The rest contributed in their spare time.  Two more are
> now paid to migrate an existing application and thus contribute to add
> missing features and fix bugs.  By creating a separate project, we hope to
> attract more folks who may not want to be involved with the legacy Apache
> Flex code.
>
> Relationship with Existing Apache Projects
>
> Apache FlexJS might use some releases from Apache Flex for some features
> or for an Installer app.  FlexJS can be used to create Apache Cordova
> applications and we hope to find time to make the Cordova community aware
> of this capability.  The Apache FlexJS Compiler has dependencies on Apache
> Commons, and we use Apache Ant and Apache Maven for building the various
> release artifacts.
>
> Cryptography
>
> Apache FlexJS does not currently distribute cryptography code other than
> an MD5 hash algorithm.
>
> Required Resources
>
> Mailing Lists
>
> -private@
> -dev@
> -commits@
> -users@
> -issues@
>
> Version Control
>
> We would like to use GitBox if it is practical to convert the current git
> repos listed above.  We want to explore using GitHub's wiki and
> documentation tools.
>
> Issue Tracking
>
> If GitBox allows us to use GitHub issues, we will use that, otherwise, we
> will request a new JIRA project from Infra.
>
> Other Resources
>
> We would like to try using Git for our website version control and
> whatever the publishing process is.  We will probably continue to run jobs
> on builds.a.o.
>
> Initial PMC
>
> Harbs
> Yishay Weiss
> Alex Harui
> Peter Ent
> Josh Tynjala
> Piotr Zarzycki
> Carlos Rovira
> Greg Dove
> Erik De Bruin
> Omprakash Muppirala
> Frédéric Thomas
> Olaf Krueger
> Michael Schmalle
> Dave Fisher
>
>
> Initial Committers
>
> Christofer Dutz
> Andy Dufilie
> Darrell Loverin
>
> We propose Harbs as initial PMC Chair and VP Apache FlexJS.
>
> Affiliations
>
> Alex Harui and Peter Ent are currently employees of Adobe Systems Inc.
> Nobody else works for a large corporation.
>
> --------- end proposal -----------
>
>
> It isn't clear how much longer Adobe will pay Peter and I to work on Flex
> and/or FlexJS.  So getting rid of as much overhead as possible so we can
> try to get as many folks to use FlexJS in the next few months will help
> make a case to keep us on FlexJS longer.  Yes there is a risk that forking
> may be a distraction and cause a loss of momentum, but whether I get to
> continue full-time or in my spare-time, I want to make the most efficient
> use of my time.
>
>
> I will be stepping down as Apache Flex chair since I want to spend most of
> my time on FlexJS.  I will remain on the Apache Flex PMC to help out in
> case of emergency.
>
> Please provide feedback and questions ASAP.  The plan is to have a vote in
> a few days so we can present this proposal to the board around September 1
> so it can be on the September board agenda along with changes to the
> Apache Flex chair.
>
>
> Thanks,
> -Alex
>

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Re: [DISCUSS} Fork FlexJS from Apache Flex

OmPrakash Muppirala
+1 for the fork.

Thanks,
Om

On Aug 28, 2017 10:05 PM, "Harbs" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Very well  said.
>
> Let’s do this! :-)
>
> Harbs
>
> > On Aug 29, 2017, at 7:37 AM, Alex Harui <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Folks,
> >
> > I (and many others on the PMC) believe there are sufficient reasons to
> ask
> > the Apache Board of Directors to create a new Apache Top-Level Project
> > called Apache FlexJS separate from Apache Flex.  The Apache Board has
> > approved splitting other projects in the past and the proposal below is
> > based on a past proposal to split another Apache project.
> >
> > The main reason is that there seems to be a set of folks who are only
> > working on Apache Flex and another set who are only working on FlexJS.
> > Only a few have made commits to both products in the past year and the
> > contribution to one product or the other was minimal.  Second, forking
> > should save time for folks only interested in Flex or FlexJS as you don't
> > have to filter out emails, web site and wiki information and bugs reports
> > that apply to the product you are not interested in.  Third, forking
> would
> > give a cleaner opportunity to try out Apache's GitBox implementation that
> > allows us to leverage more GitHub functionality and make GitHub more
> > primary in our development pipeline.  Fourth, many folks on the PMC have
> > not been active in a long time, and a new project with a smaller PMC and
> > committers list might make it more clear who is involved with FlexJS.
> >
> > --------- proposal -----------
> >
> > Apache FlexJS for Apache Top-Level Project
> >
> > Abstract
> >
> > Apache FlexJS is a new implementation of the principles of Apache Flex
> but
> > designed for JavaScript runtimes instead of Adobe Flash/AIR runtimes.
> > Apache FlexJS was created and released as part of the Apache Flex project
> > and the UI framework is a full rewrite and does not leverage the code
> > bases donated by Adobe.  Only the FlexJS compiler source was donated by
> > Adobe.
> >
> > Over time, the set of Apache Flex committers who are working on Apache
> > Flex releases have become distinct from those working on FlexJS.  Add to
> > that the Adobe announcement of the end-of-life for Flash in the browser,
> > it makes sense to separate FlexJS from Flex so that followers of one side
> > or the other don't have to filter out emails, bugs, web pages, etc, that
> > they don't need.
> >
> > The proposal is to form an Apache FlexJS top-level project instead of
> > creating a new Incubator Podling.   That is because all of the folks
> being
> > proposed to the new Apache FlexJS PMC below have been on the Apache Flex
> > PMC for months, if not years, and understand how to participate
> > productively in an Apache project.  Plus, Apache FlexJS has already been
> > released by the top-level Apache Flex project.
> >
> > Overview of FlexJS
> >
> > Apache FlexJS is designed to improve developer productivity in creating
> > applications for wherever Javascript runs, including browsers as well as
> > Apache Cordova applications, Node, etc.  FlexJS already has an ecosystem
> > of folks creating IDEs for FlexJS, and some folks are at various points
> in
> > the process of migrating existing Flex applications to FlexJS.
> >
> > Current Status
> >
> > Meritocracy
> >
> > Within Apache Flex, the FlexJS development has been conducted as a
> > meritocracy.  No existing FlexJS developers came with the compiler code
> > base donated by Adobe nor were they on the initial committers list for
> > Apache Flex other than Alex Harui.  Everyone else has earned their way in
> > by contributing and earning merit.
> >
> > Community
> >
> > Many FlexJS users are trying to migrate an existing Apache Flex app off
> of
> > Adobe Flash.  As their migration progresses they will become less and
> less
> > interested in Apache Flex releases and activity.  However, the Apache
> Flex
> > JIRA project contains some  30,000 Flex issues migrated from Adobe's bug
> > base, and the team page for Flex makes it hard to determine which
> > committers are active on FlexJS, and it is frequently hard to determine
> if
> > a user's question is about regular Flex or FlexJS.   We are seeing an
> > increase in user interest with the Flash end-of-life announcement and
> > having separate mailing lists, web pages, and JIRA projects will help
> save
> > everyone time and energy.
> >
> > Alignment
> >
> > Apache FlexJS is already being released by Apache.
> >
> > Known Risks
> >
> > Code Extraction
> >
> > The flex-asjs, flex-tours, flex-typedefs, and flex-falcon Git repos would
> > be migrated to GitBox.  Other Apache Flex repos would be treated as
> > external dependencies.  This includes flex-utilities and the Apache Flex
> > Installer.
> >
> > Orphaned Projects
> >
> > Most FlexJS PMC members are planning to remain on the Apache Flex PMC to
> > help out just-in-case, but are already mostly inactive on the Flex code
> > bases. However, there are at least 3 Apache Flex PMC members who have not
> > contributed at all to FlexJS and participate in regular Flex releases, so
> > the expectation is that Apache Flex will remain a viable project for some
> > time to come.
> >
> > Inexperience with Open Source
> >
> > All of the initial team has been contributing to Apache Flex for months
> if
> > not years.
> >
> > Homogenous Developers
> >
> > No company employs more than two of the members of the initial team.
> >
> > Reliance on Salaried Developers
> >
> > Until about a year ago, only 2 of the proposed PMC members were paid to
> > work on FlexJS.  The rest contributed in their spare time.  Two more are
> > now paid to migrate an existing application and thus contribute to add
> > missing features and fix bugs.  By creating a separate project, we hope
> to
> > attract more folks who may not want to be involved with the legacy Apache
> > Flex code.
> >
> > Relationship with Existing Apache Projects
> >
> > Apache FlexJS might use some releases from Apache Flex for some features
> > or for an Installer app.  FlexJS can be used to create Apache Cordova
> > applications and we hope to find time to make the Cordova community aware
> > of this capability.  The Apache FlexJS Compiler has dependencies on
> Apache
> > Commons, and we use Apache Ant and Apache Maven for building the various
> > release artifacts.
> >
> > Cryptography
> >
> > Apache FlexJS does not currently distribute cryptography code other than
> > an MD5 hash algorithm.
> >
> > Required Resources
> >
> > Mailing Lists
> >
> > -private@
> > -dev@
> > -commits@
> > -users@
> > -issues@
> >
> > Version Control
> >
> > We would like to use GitBox if it is practical to convert the current git
> > repos listed above.  We want to explore using GitHub's wiki and
> > documentation tools.
> >
> > Issue Tracking
> >
> > If GitBox allows us to use GitHub issues, we will use that, otherwise, we
> > will request a new JIRA project from Infra.
> >
> > Other Resources
> >
> > We would like to try using Git for our website version control and
> > whatever the publishing process is.  We will probably continue to run
> jobs
> > on builds.a.o.
> >
> > Initial PMC
> >
> > Harbs
> > Yishay Weiss
> > Alex Harui
> > Peter Ent
> > Josh Tynjala
> > Piotr Zarzycki
> > Carlos Rovira
> > Greg Dove
> > Erik De Bruin
> > Omprakash Muppirala
> > Frédéric Thomas
> > Olaf Krueger
> > Michael Schmalle
> > Dave Fisher
> >
> >
> > Initial Committers
> >
> > Christofer Dutz
> > Andy Dufilie
> > Darrell Loverin
> >
> > We propose Harbs as initial PMC Chair and VP Apache FlexJS.
> >
> > Affiliations
> >
> > Alex Harui and Peter Ent are currently employees of Adobe Systems Inc.
> > Nobody else works for a large corporation.
> >
> > --------- end proposal -----------
> >
> >
> > It isn't clear how much longer Adobe will pay Peter and I to work on Flex
> > and/or FlexJS.  So getting rid of as much overhead as possible so we can
> > try to get as many folks to use FlexJS in the next few months will help
> > make a case to keep us on FlexJS longer.  Yes there is a risk that
> forking
> > may be a distraction and cause a loss of momentum, but whether I get to
> > continue full-time or in my spare-time, I want to make the most efficient
> > use of my time.
> >
> >
> > I will be stepping down as Apache Flex chair since I want to spend most
> of
> > my time on FlexJS.  I will remain on the Apache Flex PMC to help out in
> > case of emergency.
> >
> > Please provide feedback and questions ASAP.  The plan is to have a vote
> in
> > a few days so we can present this proposal to the board around September
> 1
> > so it can be on the September board agenda along with changes to the
> > Apache Flex chair.
> >
> >
> > Thanks,
> > -Alex
> >
>
>
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Re: [DISCUSS} Fork FlexJS from Apache Flex

Olaf Krueger
In reply to this post by Alex Harui-2
Hi Alex,
thanks for this summary, I think this is the right way to go!
+1

But for me, it sounds a little bit, that Apache Flex is labeled as discontinued.
We should take care to not scare off or unsettle Apache Flex users.
Even if FlashPlayer is dead, Flex with AIR is still an awesome platform!
Maybe the usage of AIR could save some Flex apps a while or give users some more time to migrate to FlexJS.


> Most FlexJS PMC members are planning to remain on the Apache Flex PMC
I think it would be good to also list the Apache Flex PMC members


>I will be stepping down as Apache Flex chair
Probably I've overlooked something but who will be the chair of Apache Flex?


>It isn't clear how much longer Adobe will pay Peter and I to work on Flex
and/or FlexJS.

I would like to use the opportunity to mention that my company is only willing to invest time in FlexJS if Adobe will continue its support.
So I hope that there will be a commitment by Adobe. The fork would be a good opportunity for Adobe
to express oneself.

Thanks,
Olaf


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Re: [DISCUSS} Fork FlexJS from Apache Flex

Christofer Dutz-2
In reply to this post by Alex Harui-2
"thanks" for the "degradation"

-1

Chris

On 2017-08-29 06:37, Alex Harui <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Folks,
>
> I (and many others on the PMC) believe there are sufficient reasons to ask
> the Apache Board of Directors to create a new Apache Top-Level Project
> called Apache FlexJS separate from Apache Flex.  The Apache Board has
> approved splitting other projects in the past and the proposal below is
> based on a past proposal to split another Apache project.
>
> The main reason is that there seems to be a set of folks who are only
> working on Apache Flex and another set who are only working on FlexJS.
> Only a few have made commits to both products in the past year and the
> contribution to one product or the other was minimal.  Second, forking
> should save time for folks only interested in Flex or FlexJS as you don't
> have to filter out emails, web site and wiki information and bugs reports
> that apply to the product you are not interested in.  Third, forking would
> give a cleaner opportunity to try out Apache's GitBox implementation that
> allows us to leverage more GitHub functionality and make GitHub more
> primary in our development pipeline.  Fourth, many folks on the PMC have
> not been active in a long time, and a new project with a smaller PMC and
> committers list might make it more clear who is involved with FlexJS.
>
> --------- proposal -----------
>
> Apache FlexJS for Apache Top-Level Project
>
> Abstract
>
> Apache FlexJS is a new implementation of the principles of Apache Flex but
> designed for JavaScript runtimes instead of Adobe Flash/AIR runtimes.
> Apache FlexJS was created and released as part of the Apache Flex project
> and the UI framework is a full rewrite and does not leverage the code
> bases donated by Adobe.  Only the FlexJS compiler source was donated by
> Adobe.
>
> Over time, the set of Apache Flex committers who are working on Apache
> Flex releases have become distinct from those working on FlexJS.  Add to
> that the Adobe announcement of the end-of-life for Flash in the browser,
> it makes sense to separate FlexJS from Flex so that followers of one side
> or the other don't have to filter out emails, bugs, web pages, etc, that
> they don't need.
>
> The proposal is to form an Apache FlexJS top-level project instead of
> creating a new Incubator Podling.   That is because all of the folks being
> proposed to the new Apache FlexJS PMC below have been on the Apache Flex
> PMC for months, if not years, and understand how to participate
> productively in an Apache project.  Plus, Apache FlexJS has already been
> released by the top-level Apache Flex project.
>
> Overview of FlexJS
>
> Apache FlexJS is designed to improve developer productivity in creating
> applications for wherever Javascript runs, including browsers as well as
> Apache Cordova applications, Node, etc.  FlexJS already has an ecosystem
> of folks creating IDEs for FlexJS, and some folks are at various points in
> the process of migrating existing Flex applications to FlexJS.
>
> Current Status
>
> Meritocracy
>
> Within Apache Flex, the FlexJS development has been conducted as a
> meritocracy.  No existing FlexJS developers came with the compiler code
> base donated by Adobe nor were they on the initial committers list for
> Apache Flex other than Alex Harui.  Everyone else has earned their way in
> by contributing and earning merit.
>
> Community
>
> Many FlexJS users are trying to migrate an existing Apache Flex app off of
> Adobe Flash.  As their migration progresses they will become less and less
> interested in Apache Flex releases and activity.  However, the Apache Flex
> JIRA project contains some  30,000 Flex issues migrated from Adobe's bug
> base, and the team page for Flex makes it hard to determine which
> committers are active on FlexJS, and it is frequently hard to determine if
> a user's question is about regular Flex or FlexJS.   We are seeing an
> increase in user interest with the Flash end-of-life announcement and
> having separate mailing lists, web pages, and JIRA projects will help save
> everyone time and energy.
>
> Alignment
>
> Apache FlexJS is already being released by Apache.
>
> Known Risks
>
> Code Extraction
>
> The flex-asjs, flex-tours, flex-typedefs, and flex-falcon Git repos would
> be migrated to GitBox.  Other Apache Flex repos would be treated as
> external dependencies.  This includes flex-utilities and the Apache Flex
> Installer.
>
> Orphaned Projects
>
> Most FlexJS PMC members are planning to remain on the Apache Flex PMC to
> help out just-in-case, but are already mostly inactive on the Flex code
> bases. However, there are at least 3 Apache Flex PMC members who have not
> contributed at all to FlexJS and participate in regular Flex releases, so
> the expectation is that Apache Flex will remain a viable project for some
> time to come.
>
> Inexperience with Open Source
>
> All of the initial team has been contributing to Apache Flex for months if
> not years.
>
> Homogenous Developers
>
> No company employs more than two of the members of the initial team.
>
> Reliance on Salaried Developers
>
> Until about a year ago, only 2 of the proposed PMC members were paid to
> work on FlexJS.  The rest contributed in their spare time.  Two more are
> now paid to migrate an existing application and thus contribute to add
> missing features and fix bugs.  By creating a separate project, we hope to
> attract more folks who may not want to be involved with the legacy Apache
> Flex code.
>
> Relationship with Existing Apache Projects
>
> Apache FlexJS might use some releases from Apache Flex for some features
> or for an Installer app.  FlexJS can be used to create Apache Cordova
> applications and we hope to find time to make the Cordova community aware
> of this capability.  The Apache FlexJS Compiler has dependencies on Apache
> Commons, and we use Apache Ant and Apache Maven for building the various
> release artifacts.
>
> Cryptography
>
> Apache FlexJS does not currently distribute cryptography code other than
> an MD5 hash algorithm.
>
> Required Resources
>
> Mailing Lists
>
> -private@
> -dev@
> -commits@
> -users@
> -issues@
>
> Version Control
>
> We would like to use GitBox if it is practical to convert the current git
> repos listed above.  We want to explore using GitHub's wiki and
> documentation tools.
>
> Issue Tracking
>
> If GitBox allows us to use GitHub issues, we will use that, otherwise, we
> will request a new JIRA project from Infra.
>
> Other Resources
>
> We would like to try using Git for our website version control and
> whatever the publishing process is.  We will probably continue to run jobs
> on builds.a.o.
>
> Initial PMC
>
> Harbs
> Yishay Weiss
> Alex Harui
> Peter Ent
> Josh Tynjala
> Piotr Zarzycki
> Carlos Rovira
> Greg Dove
> Erik De Bruin
> Omprakash Muppirala
> Frédéric Thomas
> Olaf Krueger
> Michael Schmalle
> Dave Fisher
>
>
> Initial Committers
>
> Christofer Dutz
> Andy Dufilie
> Darrell Loverin
>
> We propose Harbs as initial PMC Chair and VP Apache FlexJS.
>
> Affiliations
>
> Alex Harui and Peter Ent are currently employees of Adobe Systems Inc.
> Nobody else works for a large corporation.
>
> --------- end proposal -----------
>
>
> It isn't clear how much longer Adobe will pay Peter and I to work on Flex
> and/or FlexJS.  So getting rid of as much overhead as possible so we can
> try to get as many folks to use FlexJS in the next few months will help
> make a case to keep us on FlexJS longer.  Yes there is a risk that forking
> may be a distraction and cause a loss of momentum, but whether I get to
> continue full-time or in my spare-time, I want to make the most efficient
> use of my time.
>
>
> I will be stepping down as Apache Flex chair since I want to spend most of
> my time on FlexJS.  I will remain on the Apache Flex PMC to help out in
> case of emergency.
>
> Please provide feedback and questions ASAP.  The plan is to have a vote in
> a few days so we can present this proposal to the board around September 1
> so it can be on the September board agenda along with changes to the
> Apache Flex chair.
>
>
> Thanks,
> -Alex
>
>
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Re: [DISCUSS} Fork FlexJS from Apache Flex

Olaf Krüger
> "thanks" for the "degradation"

Please don't start the new project with trouble!
I hope that there are no doubts that Chris is an important part of the PMC.

Thanks,
Olaf

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Re: [DISCUSS} Fork FlexJS from Apache Flex

Justin Mclean
Administrator
In reply to this post by Alex Harui-2
Hi,

As a long standing Flex PMC and committer (5 1/2 years) with a large number of contributions in code [1] (and also elsewhere) I’d like to be added as a PMC and committer to this proposal.

I’ve also made a number of contributions directly to FlexJS [2], reviewed releases, spoken at conferences on FlexJS and more receintly created the website for the FlexJS summit held at the last ApacheCon [3] and have been working on a FlexJS application.

Thanks,
Justin

1. https://github.com/apache/flex-sdk/graphs/contributors
2. https://github.com/apache/flex-asjs/graphs/contributors
3. https://us.apacheflexjs.org
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Re: [DISCUSS} Fork FlexJS from Apache Flex

Tom Chiverton-2
In reply to this post by Alex Harui-2
I think this is a good idea. The projects and people who work on them
are diverging, and have been for a while.

Some people clearly wish to contribute to both - but I think for most
people it's one or the other. I don't want to get into a big list of who
has done what; that's my impression and reason why I would vote for this.

Tom


On 29/08/17 05:37, Alex Harui wrote:
> Hi Folks,
>
> I (and many others on the PMC) believe there are sufficient reasons to ask
> the Apache Board of Directors to create a new Apache Top-Level Project
> called Apache FlexJS separate from Apache Flex.

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RE: [DISCUSS} Fork FlexJS from Apache Flex

Kessler CTR Mark J
In reply to this post by Alex Harui-2
+1 to Split to FlexJS


-Mark K

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Re: [DISCUSS} Fork FlexJS from Apache Flex

Olaf Krüger
In reply to this post by Alex Harui-2
I've already replied via nabble a few hours ago but it seems that it is not synced with the list for whatever reason... so sorry for annoying you:

Hi Alex,
thanks for this summary, I think this is the right way to go!
+1

But for me, it sounds a little bit, that Apache Flex is labeled as discontinued.
We should take care to not scare off or unsettle Apache Flex users.
Even if FlashPlayer is dead, Flex with AIR is still an awesome platform!
Maybe the usage of AIR could save some Flex apps a for while or give users some more time to migrate to FlexJS.


> Most FlexJS PMC members are planning to remain on the Apache Flex PMC
I think it would be good to also list the Apache Flex PMC members


>I will be stepping down as Apache Flex chair
Probably I've overlooked something but who will be the chair of Apache Flex?


>It isn't clear how much longer Adobe will pay Peter and I to work on Flex
and/or FlexJS.

I would like to use the opportunity to mention that my company is only willing to invest time in FlexJS if Adobe will continue its support.
So I hope that there will be a commitment by Adobe. The fork would be a good opportunity for Adobe
to express oneself.

Thanks,
Olaf
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Re: [DISCUSS} Fork FlexJS from Apache Flex

Peter Ent-2
Hi,

As an employee of Adobe and a contributor to Apache FlexJS, I think this
new project fork is a good idea. Companies with investment in Flex
applications that rely on the Flash Player to deliver their applications
to their users will have to look for alternatives in the next couple of
years.

Apache FlexJS provides this opportunity. With continued support from the
community, we can chart a path to make the transition easier in a number
of ways. For example, wiki articles that provide guidance for migration or
new FlexJS framework kits that help bridge the gap between Apache Flex and
FlexJS. And many other ideas will come from this.

I feel the opportunity to turn a negative into a positive is a huge one
and doing this now is the best time.

Regards,
Peter Ent
Adobe Systems/Apache Flex(JS) Project


>

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Re: [DISCUSS} Fork FlexJS from Apache Flex

piotrz
Hi,

+1

Well prepared abstract. It is definitely the time for making split. I hope
that board will understand us and this will go smoothly.
Looking forward to the voting.

Thank you!
Piotr


2017-08-29 16:29 GMT+02:00 Peter Ent <[hidden email]>:

> Hi,
>
> As an employee of Adobe and a contributor to Apache FlexJS, I think this
> new project fork is a good idea. Companies with investment in Flex
> applications that rely on the Flash Player to deliver their applications
> to their users will have to look for alternatives in the next couple of
> years.
>
> Apache FlexJS provides this opportunity. With continued support from the
> community, we can chart a path to make the transition easier in a number
> of ways. For example, wiki articles that provide guidance for migration or
> new FlexJS framework kits that help bridge the gap between Apache Flex and
> FlexJS. And many other ideas will come from this.
>
> I feel the opportunity to turn a negative into a positive is a huge one
> and doing this now is the best time.
>
> Regards,
> Peter Ent
> Adobe Systems/Apache Flex(JS) Project
>
>
> >
>
>


--

Piotr Zarzycki

mobile: +48 880 859 557
skype: zarzycki10

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RE: Re: [DISCUSS} Fork FlexJS from Apache Flex

Kessler CTR Mark J
In reply to this post by Alex Harui-2
It is good to point this out.  There are other targets that can be compiled into other than flash.  Such as Air and it's captive runtimes for desktop and mobile.


My understanding is Adobe has a vested interesting alternatives to the Flash Player as targets.  They are not getting rid of ActionScript or Air, so it's mostly going to receive support for all things AS related.


There will still be quite a few PMC members on the Flex SDK side.  Some will be on both SDK and JS sides.


-----Original Message-----
From: Olaf Krueger [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2017 7:14 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [DISCUSS} Fork FlexJS from Apache Flex

I've already replied via nabble a few hours ago but it seems that it is not synced with the list for whatever reason... so sorry for annoying you:

Hi Alex,
thanks for this summary, I think this is the right way to go!
+1

But for me, it sounds a little bit, that Apache Flex is labeled as discontinued.
We should take care to not scare off or unsettle Apache Flex users.
Even if FlashPlayer is dead, Flex with AIR is still an awesome platform!
Maybe the usage of AIR could save some Flex apps a for while or give users some more time to migrate to FlexJS.


> Most FlexJS PMC members are planning to remain on the Apache Flex PMC
I think it would be good to also list the Apache Flex PMC members


>I will be stepping down as Apache Flex chair
Probably I've overlooked something but who will be the chair of Apache Flex?


>It isn't clear how much longer Adobe will pay Peter and I to work on Flex
and/or FlexJS.

I would like to use the opportunity to mention that my company is only willing to invest time in FlexJS if Adobe will continue its support.
So I hope that there will be a commitment by Adobe. The fork would be a good opportunity for Adobe
to express oneself.

Thanks,
Olaf

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Re: [DISCUSS} Fork FlexJS from Apache Flex

Greg Dove
In reply to this post by Alex Harui-2
The proposal does seem logical to me.

I am happy to participate as a committer in whatever the result of this is,
but the statement about the historical PMC membership in Flex is not true
for me (and I prefer to remain as a committer for FlexJS, not a PMC member).

I was also surprised not to see Justin and Chris in the proposed PMC. And
following on from both of their comments in the thread, overlooking their
contributions is an omission given that the evidence is there.
Justin's encouragement was the main reason I ended up contributing to
FlexJS in the first place, so beyond what he added in the thread I can
confirm he has also 'recruited' at least one committer for FlexJS, and I
know Chris had to work hard with me (and others) to promote the benefits of
maven, but I am now hooked :).



On Tue, Aug 29, 2017 at 4:37 PM, Alex Harui <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Hi Folks,
>
> I (and many others on the PMC) believe there are sufficient reasons to ask
> the Apache Board of Directors to create a new Apache Top-Level Project
> called Apache FlexJS separate from Apache Flex.  The Apache Board has
> approved splitting other projects in the past and the proposal below is
> based on a past proposal to split another Apache project.
>
> The main reason is that there seems to be a set of folks who are only
> working on Apache Flex and another set who are only working on FlexJS.
> Only a few have made commits to both products in the past year and the
> contribution to one product or the other was minimal.  Second, forking
> should save time for folks only interested in Flex or FlexJS as you don't
> have to filter out emails, web site and wiki information and bugs reports
> that apply to the product you are not interested in.  Third, forking would
> give a cleaner opportunity to try out Apache's GitBox implementation that
> allows us to leverage more GitHub functionality and make GitHub more
> primary in our development pipeline.  Fourth, many folks on the PMC have
> not been active in a long time, and a new project with a smaller PMC and
> committers list might make it more clear who is involved with FlexJS.
>
> --------- proposal -----------
>
> Apache FlexJS for Apache Top-Level Project
>
> Abstract
>
> Apache FlexJS is a new implementation of the principles of Apache Flex but
> designed for JavaScript runtimes instead of Adobe Flash/AIR runtimes.
> Apache FlexJS was created and released as part of the Apache Flex project
> and the UI framework is a full rewrite and does not leverage the code
> bases donated by Adobe.  Only the FlexJS compiler source was donated by
> Adobe.
>
> Over time, the set of Apache Flex committers who are working on Apache
> Flex releases have become distinct from those working on FlexJS.  Add to
> that the Adobe announcement of the end-of-life for Flash in the browser,
> it makes sense to separate FlexJS from Flex so that followers of one side
> or the other don't have to filter out emails, bugs, web pages, etc, that
> they don't need.
>
> The proposal is to form an Apache FlexJS top-level project instead of
> creating a new Incubator Podling.   That is because all of the folks being
> proposed to the new Apache FlexJS PMC below have been on the Apache Flex
> PMC for months, if not years, and understand how to participate
> productively in an Apache project.  Plus, Apache FlexJS has already been
> released by the top-level Apache Flex project.
>
> Overview of FlexJS
>
> Apache FlexJS is designed to improve developer productivity in creating
> applications for wherever Javascript runs, including browsers as well as
> Apache Cordova applications, Node, etc.  FlexJS already has an ecosystem
> of folks creating IDEs for FlexJS, and some folks are at various points in
> the process of migrating existing Flex applications to FlexJS.
>
> Current Status
>
> Meritocracy
>
> Within Apache Flex, the FlexJS development has been conducted as a
> meritocracy.  No existing FlexJS developers came with the compiler code
> base donated by Adobe nor were they on the initial committers list for
> Apache Flex other than Alex Harui.  Everyone else has earned their way in
> by contributing and earning merit.
>
> Community
>
> Many FlexJS users are trying to migrate an existing Apache Flex app off of
> Adobe Flash.  As their migration progresses they will become less and less
> interested in Apache Flex releases and activity.  However, the Apache Flex
> JIRA project contains some  30,000 Flex issues migrated from Adobe's bug
> base, and the team page for Flex makes it hard to determine which
> committers are active on FlexJS, and it is frequently hard to determine if
> a user's question is about regular Flex or FlexJS.   We are seeing an
> increase in user interest with the Flash end-of-life announcement and
> having separate mailing lists, web pages, and JIRA projects will help save
> everyone time and energy.
>
> Alignment
>
> Apache FlexJS is already being released by Apache.
>
> Known Risks
>
> Code Extraction
>
> The flex-asjs, flex-tours, flex-typedefs, and flex-falcon Git repos would
> be migrated to GitBox.  Other Apache Flex repos would be treated as
> external dependencies.  This includes flex-utilities and the Apache Flex
> Installer.
>
> Orphaned Projects
>
> Most FlexJS PMC members are planning to remain on the Apache Flex PMC to
> help out just-in-case, but are already mostly inactive on the Flex code
> bases. However, there are at least 3 Apache Flex PMC members who have not
> contributed at all to FlexJS and participate in regular Flex releases, so
> the expectation is that Apache Flex will remain a viable project for some
> time to come.
>
> Inexperience with Open Source
>
> All of the initial team has been contributing to Apache Flex for months if
> not years.
>
> Homogenous Developers
>
> No company employs more than two of the members of the initial team.
>
> Reliance on Salaried Developers
>
> Until about a year ago, only 2 of the proposed PMC members were paid to
> work on FlexJS.  The rest contributed in their spare time.  Two more are
> now paid to migrate an existing application and thus contribute to add
> missing features and fix bugs.  By creating a separate project, we hope to
> attract more folks who may not want to be involved with the legacy Apache
> Flex code.
>
> Relationship with Existing Apache Projects
>
> Apache FlexJS might use some releases from Apache Flex for some features
> or for an Installer app.  FlexJS can be used to create Apache Cordova
> applications and we hope to find time to make the Cordova community aware
> of this capability.  The Apache FlexJS Compiler has dependencies on Apache
> Commons, and we use Apache Ant and Apache Maven for building the various
> release artifacts.
>
> Cryptography
>
> Apache FlexJS does not currently distribute cryptography code other than
> an MD5 hash algorithm.
>
> Required Resources
>
> Mailing Lists
>
> -private@
> -dev@
> -commits@
> -users@
> -issues@
>
> Version Control
>
> We would like to use GitBox if it is practical to convert the current git
> repos listed above.  We want to explore using GitHub's wiki and
> documentation tools.
>
> Issue Tracking
>
> If GitBox allows us to use GitHub issues, we will use that, otherwise, we
> will request a new JIRA project from Infra.
>
> Other Resources
>
> We would like to try using Git for our website version control and
> whatever the publishing process is.  We will probably continue to run jobs
> on builds.a.o.
>
> Initial PMC
>
> Harbs
> Yishay Weiss
> Alex Harui
> Peter Ent
> Josh Tynjala
> Piotr Zarzycki
> Carlos Rovira
> Greg Dove
> Erik De Bruin
> Omprakash Muppirala
> Frédéric Thomas
> Olaf Krueger
> Michael Schmalle
> Dave Fisher
>
>
> Initial Committers
>
> Christofer Dutz
> Andy Dufilie
> Darrell Loverin
>
> We propose Harbs as initial PMC Chair and VP Apache FlexJS.
>
> Affiliations
>
> Alex Harui and Peter Ent are currently employees of Adobe Systems Inc.
> Nobody else works for a large corporation.
>
> --------- end proposal -----------
>
>
> It isn't clear how much longer Adobe will pay Peter and I to work on Flex
> and/or FlexJS.  So getting rid of as much overhead as possible so we can
> try to get as many folks to use FlexJS in the next few months will help
> make a case to keep us on FlexJS longer.  Yes there is a risk that forking
> may be a distraction and cause a loss of momentum, but whether I get to
> continue full-time or in my spare-time, I want to make the most efficient
> use of my time.
>
>
> I will be stepping down as Apache Flex chair since I want to spend most of
> my time on FlexJS.  I will remain on the Apache Flex PMC to help out in
> case of emergency.
>
> Please provide feedback and questions ASAP.  The plan is to have a vote in
> a few days so we can present this proposal to the board around September 1
> so it can be on the September board agenda along with changes to the
> Apache Flex chair.
>
>
> Thanks,
> -Alex
>
>
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Re: [DISCUSS} Fork FlexJS from Apache Flex

Tom Chiverton-2
In reply to this post by Kessler CTR Mark J
Exactly. This is not "all the Flex people walking away to do FlexJS".

There will continue to be overlap (or not) as people scratch particular
itches.

Tom


On 29/08/17 19:24, Kessler CTR Mark J wrote:
> There will still be quite a few PMC members on the Flex SDK side.  Some will be on both SDK and JS sides.

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Re: [DISCUSS} Fork FlexJS from Apache Flex

OmPrakash Muppirala
I want to throw in the name FenixJS for the fork.
Its a play on the words Flex + Phoenix.  You know what that means :-)

Thanks,
Om
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Re: [DISCUSS} Fork FlexJS from Apache Flex

TeotiGraphix
Eh, I like the idea but you would then pretty much just use the rise from
ashes word, because when I first read it I had no idea what it was, my
dyslexia thought it was like Feline or Kleenex. (don't ask why I see an L)

:)

Mike

On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 4:55 PM, OmPrakash Muppirala <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> I want to throw in the name FenixJS for the fork.
> Its a play on the words Flex + Phoenix.  You know what that means :-)
>
> Thanks,
> Om
>
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Re: [DISCUSS} Fork FlexJS from Apache Flex

TeotiGraphix
I forgot to mention that I am all for this fork. I have a couple projects
that I want to use this with and then I can work on the compiler for my
projects.

Interestingly Web Assembly could be a target, I am naive as what it is
detail wise, not enough research but compiling to something native would be
nice. Maybe it could future proof a compiler emitter.

Mike

On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 5:02 PM, Michael Schmalle <[hidden email]
> wrote:

> Eh, I like the idea but you would then pretty much just use the rise from
> ashes word, because when I first read it I had no idea what it was, my
> dyslexia thought it was like Feline or Kleenex. (don't ask why I see an L)
>
> :)
>
> Mike
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 4:55 PM, OmPrakash Muppirala <[hidden email]
> > wrote:
>
>> I want to throw in the name FenixJS for the fork.
>> Its a play on the words Flex + Phoenix.  You know what that means :-)
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Om
>>
>
>
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Re: [DISCUSS} Fork FlexJS from Apache Flex

chrsmrtn
In reply to this post by Alex Harui-2
I am for this fork. I hope to maybe be added to the project after things get
settled.

Cheers and good luck!

Chris



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Re: [DISCUSS} Fork FlexJS from Apache Flex

Erik de Bruin
In reply to this post by OmPrakash Muppirala
OK, if we're throwing names out there, here is one:

BendJS

EdB



On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 10:55 PM, OmPrakash Muppirala <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> I want to throw in the name FenixJS for the fork.
> Its a play on the words Flex + Phoenix.  You know what that means :-)
>
> Thanks,
> Om
>



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