I hate top posting

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I hate top posting

Bertrand Delacretaz
Hi Flex community,

I'm just here as an incubation mentor so I'm not going to dictate
anything (nor do I have the power to do so when it comes to such
things), but I hate top posting and I'm seeing way too much of it for
my taste here.

How much in reverse are you reading to used don't I know, but that
doesn't work for me - in my experience, top posting tends to lead to
shallow discussions, as it's hard to see exactly what one is replying
to so a lot of precision is lost.

Also, keeping the whole thread in each message makes our archives next
to useless, as searching for a specific statement will return every
message in the thread.

IMO, the first part of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style
describes the efficient Apache style of "inline posting with minimal
quoting" very well, and also IMO that's by far the style that works
best for serious discussions on a large list like this one.

Spending some time to carefully trim and quote what you're replying to
will save lots of time for the (already many) subscribers of this list
when reading your message.

If your mail client is too broken for that, use a better one for your
Apache communications...

Thanks for listening, and yes top posting does work in *some* cases as
well, like just saying +1 to a long rant like this one (hehe...I just
killed that potential joke ;-)

-Bertrand

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Re: I hate top posting

Raju Bitter
Good points, especially with regard to trimming and the search feature.

- Raju

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Re: I hate top posting

Omar Gonzalez
In reply to this post by Bertrand Delacretaz
+1 - I'll take the joke opportunity anyway. :D

On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 2:02 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz
<[hidden email]>wrote:

> Hi Flex community,
>
> I'm just here as an incubation mentor so I'm not going to dictate
> anything (nor do I have the power to do so when it comes to such
> things), but I hate top posting and I'm seeing way too much of it for
> my taste here.
>
> How much in reverse are you reading to used don't I know, but that
> doesn't work for me - in my experience, top posting tends to lead to
> shallow discussions, as it's hard to see exactly what one is replying
> to so a lot of precision is lost.
>
> Also, keeping the whole thread in each message makes our archives next
> to useless, as searching for a specific statement will return every
> message in the thread.
>
> IMO, the first part of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style
> describes the efficient Apache style of "inline posting with minimal
> quoting" very well, and also IMO that's by far the style that works
> best for serious discussions on a large list like this one.
>
> Spending some time to carefully trim and quote what you're replying to
> will save lots of time for the (already many) subscribers of this list
> when reading your message.
>
> If your mail client is too broken for that, use a better one for your
> Apache communications...
>
> Thanks for listening, and yes top posting does work in *some* cases as
> well, like just saying +1 to a long rant like this one (hehe...I just
> killed that potential joke ;-)
>
> -Bertrand
>
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Re: I hate top posting

Peter Elst
> +1 - I'll take the joke opportunity anyway. :D
>

+1 :) In all seriousness, good points and if the post volume of this
mailinglist continues as it is now good to have some best practices going.

- Peter
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Re: I hate top posting

paulevans
In reply to this post by Bertrand Delacretaz
On 5 Jan 2012, at 10:02, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:

> IMO, the first part of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style
> describes the efficient Apache style of "inline posting with minimal
> quoting" very well, and also IMO that's by far the style that works
> best for serious discussions on a large list like this one.

+1
Very glad you articulated it


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Re: I hate top posting

El Koro
> On 5 Jan 2012, at 10:02, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
> IMO, the first part of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style
> describes the efficient Apache style of "inline posting with minimal
> quoting" very well, and also IMO that's by far the style that works
> best for serious discussions on a large list like this one.
>

+1
I was considering writting a similar message.
Everyone who've been on an Adobe prerelease program knows how everybody lost
time and knowledge possibility when message rules are not followed,
particularly on what seems to start as a high-trafic ML.
Your delete key is our saviour.

On a related note (and souvenir), please don't set up "away from work"
message to your ML address. Particularly if it's written in a non-English
language (wu shihuan style </prerelease joke> )


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re: I hate top posting

Rui D. Silva
In reply to this post by Bertrand Delacretaz
Point taken and I'm sorry for being one of those people that do it. You're
absolutely right and I'd very gladly +1 on that!

-------- Original Message --------

> From: "Bertrand Delacretaz" <[hidden email]>
> Sent: quinta-feira, 5 de Janeiro de 2012 10:28
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: I hate top posting
>
> Hi Flex community,
>
> I'm just here as an incubation mentor so I'm not going to dictate
> anything (nor do I have the power to do so when it comes to such
> things), but I hate top posting and I'm seeing way too much of it for
> my taste here.
>
> How much in reverse are you reading to used don't I know, but that
> doesn't work for me - in my experience, top posting tends to lead to
> shallow discussions, as it's hard to see exactly what one is replying
> to so a lot of precision is lost.
>
> Also, keeping the whole thread in each message makes our archives next
> to useless, as searching for a specific statement will return every
> message in the thread.
>
> IMO, the first part of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style
> describes the efficient Apache style of "inline posting with minimal
> quoting" very well, and also IMO that's by far the style that works
> best for serious discussions on a large list like this one.
>
> Spending some time to carefully trim and quote what you're replying to
> will save lots of time for the (already many) subscribers of this list
> when reading your message.
>
> If your mail client is too broken for that, use a better one for your
> Apache communications...
>
> Thanks for listening, and yes top posting does work in *some* cases as
> well, like just saying +1 to a long rant like this one (hehe...I just
> killed that potential joke ;-)
>
> -Bertrand



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RE: I hate top posting

David Arno
In reply to this post by Bertrand Delacretaz
> From: Bertrand Delacretaz [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: 05 January 2012 10:03
> I'm just here as an incubation mentor so I'm not going to dictate anything (nor do I have the power to do so when it comes to such things),
> but I hate top posting and I'm seeing way too much of it for my taste here.

And I hate bottom posting. As neither is the right way to do it, and it's all down to a combination of preference and chosen email client, what an individual might hate isn't really of importance, surely?


> Also, keeping the whole thread in each message makes our archives next to useless, as searching for a
> specific statement will return every message in the thread.
> ...
> Spending some time to carefully trim and quote what you're replying to will save lots of time for the (already many)
> subscribers of this list when reading your message.

Both of these are valid points.


> If your mail client is too broken for that, use a better one for your Apache communications...

My email client isn't broken, and, in my opinion, there is no better one available for my needs. It just does things differently to how you like to do it. The preferred method of doing Apache communications is a pain for me as I have to manually edit and indent replies, but if it is of benefit to all in the long run, I'm happy to follow that convention. It's a minor pain compared with either making life harder for others, or having to use a different email just for this list.

Your core message - that edited, bottom-posted emails work best with Apache's archive facility and so could we please follow that convention - is a good one. It's a shame you spoilt it by insulting myself and others by suggesting you are somehow superior to us because of your choice of email client and reply method.

David.


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Re: I hate top posting

Bertrand Delacretaz
On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 12:19 PM, David Arno <[hidden email]> wrote:
> ...Your core message - that edited, bottom-posted emails work best with Apache's archive facility and so could we please follow that convention - is a good one. It's a shame you spoilt it by insulting myself and others by suggesting you are somehow superior to us because of your choice of email client and reply method....

I apologize if you feel insulted, that was not the intention - I
thought that by saying *I* hate top posting I made it clear that I'm
just expressing an opinion.

-Bertrand

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RE: I hate top posting

David Arno
> From: Bertrand Delacretaz [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: 05 January 2012 13:24
> I apologize if you feel insulted, that was not the intention - I thought that
> by saying *I* hate top posting I made it clear that I'm just expressing an opinion.

A couple of people have pointed out to me off-list that I completely over-reacted to your post and read way more into it than was there. So apologies from me too. :)

David.


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Re: I hate top posting

Jeffry Houser
In reply to this post by David Arno

  I used to do in-line posting a lot; but stopped for a few reasons.  
Outlook seems to be designed for "top posting" and makes it hard to do
in-line or bottom posting.  The end result is that every corporate
client I have does top posting and some get confused w/ in-line
posting.  Often the in-line posts are never read.  The second is that
the Adobe pre-release forums remove all the formatting and quoting,
making in-line posting just a confused mess.

  But, in this case I don't care either way.  I had just accepted that
in-line posting had gone the way of the Dodo bird.

On 1/5/2012 6:19 AM, David Arno wrote:
>> From: Bertrand Delacretaz [mailto:[hidden email]]
>> Sent: 05 January 2012 10:03
>> I'm just here as an incubation mentor so I'm not going to dictate anything (nor do I have the power to do so when it comes to such things),
>> but I hate top posting and I'm seeing way too much of it for my taste here.
> And I hate bottom posting. As neither is the right way to do it, and it's all down to a combination of preference and chosen email client, what an individual might hate isn't really of importance, surely?


--
Jeffry Houser
Technical Entrepreneur
203-379-0773
--
http://www.flextras.com?c=104
UI Flex Components: Tested! Supported! Ready!
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http://www.theflexshow.com
http://www.jeffryhouser.com
http://www.asktheflexpert.com
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Part of the DotComIt Brain Trust


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Re: I hate top posting

Bertrand Delacretaz
In reply to this post by David Arno
On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 3:09 PM, David Arno <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> From: Bertrand Delacretaz [mailto:[hidden email]]
>> Sent: 05 January 2012 13:24
>> I apologize if you feel insulted, that was not the intention - I thought that
>> by saying *I* hate top posting I made it clear that I'm just expressing an opinion.
>
> A couple of people have pointed out to me off-list that I completely over-reacted to your post and read way more into it than was there. So apologies from me too. :)

Cool thanks - hopefully we'll have the opportunity to share a drink at
some point in the future ;-)
-Bertrand

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Re: I hate top posting

Michael Schmalle
Quoting Bertrand Delacretaz <[hidden email]>:

> On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 3:09 PM, David Arno <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> From: Bertrand Delacretaz [mailto:[hidden email]]
>>> Sent: 05 January 2012 13:24
>>> I apologize if you feel insulted, that was not the intention - I  
>>> thought that
>>> by saying *I* hate top posting I made it clear that I'm just  
>>> expressing an opinion.
>>
>> A couple of people have pointed out to me off-list that I  
>> completely over-reacted to your post and read way more into it than  
>> was there. So apologies from me too. :)
>
> Cool thanks - hopefully we'll have the opportunity to share a drink at
> some point in the future ;-)
> -Bertrand
>

I think it's interesting to note that the wiki page that describes top posting
also states that a lot of people are turning back to it because of the way
mobile works and saving bandwidth.

 From the amount of mailing lists I have been involved in, seems like there is
still a 50-50 split. Most useful for answering directed questions, but  
opinions
on a post seem to end up with top posting.

Mike